Several years ago, I had a student, “Jake” with ADHD and anger/aggression problems.
We tried various things to help him and all did some good, but the thing I most wanted to change for him, I had zero control over. Jake would come to school every day with snacks that contained at or near zero nutrition. But plenty of sugar and calories. One day it was an entire sleeve of Thin Mint Girl Scout Cookies. Another day it was a massive bag of “Takis”. Other days he would actually only have money to buy a snack from the cafeteria, but he would spend $5 on $0.25 cookies. Yes, they actually let him buy 20 cookies! And he ate them all at snack time.
In case you were wondering, he was not even slightly overweight. He played hard as soon as he was done with his snack and seemed to have a naturally thin body type. However, I always wondered if some of his behavioral challenges would be alleviated if he had a healthier diet.
In this week’s podcast episode, you’ll hear from Dr. Wendy Schofer- a pediatrician who specializes in coaching families on improving the diets of their families.
She’ll share something that surprised me a bit, and yet is completely in line with this entire series.
I would love to hear what diet changes you are considering or what is already working for your family!
Audio version: www.DecodingLearningDifferences.com
This is Decoding Learning Differences with Kimberlynn Lavelle. This episode is part of our series on optimizing learning through getting to know your child. This episode is optimizing diet to optimize learning. It is an interview with Wendy Schofer, MD. She is a pediatrician, and I'm really excited to share this interview with you. She talks a lot about the, the ways that we can make our child's diet better and a lot about how it just needs to be a very individualized thing that we need to look at our specific child.
And what does that specific child need? What works for our family, looking at different pieces, and you're going to get a lot out of it. There was so many things that I took away from this interview. One of the big ones that comes to mind is high quality food can lead to a high quality performance. So we're really looking for that.
You know, just what is the best things that we can be feeding our families so that they can live their best life. And we do get into, you know, how to make it practical and not, not too deep, but we do touch on it and talk about it some. So I would love to hear what are your takeaways? What is it that you are getting out of this interview?
So I think end of it, email me. Kimberlynn@DecodingLearningDifferences.com. I hope you enjoy. And here is our interview with Wendy Schofer. Hello, Wendy. Thank you so much for joining us today. I would love for you. I would love for you to introduce yourself to our audience. They can know a little bit more about you.
Well, it is truly a pleasure. I, I appreciate being here with you today. So I am Dr. Wendy Schofer. I am a pediatrician, my goodness now in practice for yes, 17 years just finally crossed over the threshold. I always have to judge how long I've been in practice by how old my kids are. So it's a good reminder for me,
but I'm a general pediatrician. The vast majority of my practice has been within the military health system, all sorts of different types of settings there, but the vast majority of the time was in primary care. And now I'm actually working in the community a lot more with a lot of community nutrition projects for families, as well as you know, with having my,
my coaching focus as well around family nutrition. Excellent. So our listeners are primarily parents of kids with some kind of learning difference learning, especially different, different disabilities. How much of an impact will the child's diet have on their learning? Absolutely. That is a great question. And it's not one with a simple answer. It's not something that we can put an exact number to it.
And I think that one of the things that I always come back to is that nutrition is the fuel for all of our functions, you know, for our bodies. And so it's often things that we think about the fuel to be able to go out and run and play, but our brains have the biggest need for the nutrition, the biggest draw for,
for our nutrition and needing a good adequate source of calories. Being able to really optimize brain function is dependent upon having a good varied diet, the good variety of the nutrition, but it's hard to put an actual number to that or to be able to really describe it. It's kind of like just saying, you know, go get good nutrition. And then it's like,
well, what does that really look like? It's kind of like left for everybody to, to define on their own. And that's where I think we need to do a better job of helping families, helping parents really define what that looks like for their families. Is there, is there something that in general, there are like guiding principles of this is kind of generally what you should have in,
in a decent diet. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the thing it's really having a variety of foods. Everybody will talk about having a variety of foods because if you only eat one food group or one type of food, you're kind of be missing the nutrients from the other foods that you're missing. So there's no such thing as one perfect food that has all the vitamins,
the minerals, and you start getting into the macro nutrients. So the, the carbohydrates, the protein, the fat, there was no one magic food that has all of it. And especially not something that somebody is just going to eat over and over and over again, that's going to get really boring, but looking at getting a variety of different foods.
And so a lot of times we make that kind of like, like described in the office to families about eating the variety of foods that have different colors, different food groups. So talking about your fruits, your vegetables, your protein sources. So it's the one macronutrient that we always talk about protein because it's not just meat. There are plenty of folks who find their protein sources outside of the animal kingdom.
So we do know that we can just say protein, but also having fats in your diet as well. So it's really a variety and getting all of the different nutrients that you need because your body requires this, you know, it needs the vitamins, the minerals and those different macronutrients so that it can function so that it can grow so it can heal.
And so it's in the office. We really just talk a lot about getting a variety of the foods to make it the easiest explanation, the easiest thing, because as soon as folks will start excluding foods from their diet, that's where we need to start thinking about, well, how do I need to supplement? How do I need to make sure that we get that particular food group or nutrient that they're missing?
I think the other side to your question though, is that a lot of times folks will look at supplements and then trying to see, well, how can I give these other nutritional, you know, these other ingredients, the other nutrients here into the diet, but from, from a pediatrician perspective, I'm always trying to have children take the most, eat the most variety,
had the least restrictive diet possible so that they are ideally getting all of their nutrients from their food and then not turning to supplements. If you notice something, I don't start quoting like number of grams. I do not measure in grams whatsoever, like this many grams of protein and carbohydrates and fat, because honestly, I, I don't keep it that way in my head for myself,
let alone for my kids. I don't think of it way. And if I'm going to look at food as fuel, I want to look at the whole foods. And like the foods that we look at, that it, it is what it's called. That's what I mean by, by the whole foods. You know, you look at, you're like,
oh, it's an orange. Okay. That's a whole food. It's not something that's been renamed repackaged. And so those, those foods, the oranges, the, the, the, my goodness, I'm trying to come up with examples, but, but these whole foods, they don't have like labels on them. It's not something you can be like,
oh, okay, well, I'm going to be getting this many grams of whatever in this package. It's just a whole food. Enjoy it, eat it. It's a part of your, of your diet. And when I say diet, it's just what you eat. Not as in I'm excluding something or only eating certain things, Right. There was so much there that I,
my brain is going in like five different directions, but I, I love that. Like the, the not looking, if it doesn't have a label of nutrition, facts, don't worry about the nutrition. It has, it has nutrition. We're getting, we're getting the nutrients from it. And I also think that, like, not talking about the grams and all of that is a lot less stressful,
because I know that when I see, like, you should be getting this many of this and this much of this, and here's different ways to get this particular nutrient and different ways to get this particular nutrient. And I really quickly get overwhelmed. I'm like, I give up and then I want to turn to the supplements because it's the easy way to be like,
okay, well now I know I'm getting the zinc and now I know I'm getting that. And, and then I feel like, okay, at least now I know I'm getting it because I have no idea what I'm getting from what I'm eating, it's way too hard to keep track of. So I love that. Just enjoy the food and have a variety of foods,
whole foods that that is so perfect. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about kind of specific disabilities and to what extent specific disabilities might be impacted by diet. One of the most common disabilities that I see is ADHD. And a few years ago, I had a student with ADHD, very, you know, very impulsive, really hard to keep his attention.
And he would come to school with literally an entire sleeve of girl scout as his snack. And then he'd have a giant bag of Takis you know, the like fire hot, whatever that I would not eat like, and that was his snack. And then like lunch was, I think he got the school lunch,
but yeah, it was. So would that be reasonable diet for an ADHD child? So, I mean, I would even remove the whole thing about his diagnosis and I would just say, Hey, can we, can we try to work on getting a variety of foods here? So there are concerns about the processed foods about the package foods. So the more that we process the foods,
the more that they have been made, kind of like concentrated in order to be able to get all sorts of enjoyment for our brains to say, oh my God, this is amazing. I need to keep on eating this. And so that's why you tend to see not just one or two girl scout cookies being eaten, but an entire sleeve that your body's like,
oh, I just want so much more of this. So it's something to be mindful of that when we're talking about those processed foods, the ones that basically that you get in, in a, in a package like that, that it's been engineered for us to want more of it. And it doesn't necessarily have the other vitamins and minerals, the nutrients that we get from the whole foods.
So you will see all sorts of different ingredients on there. There's going to be on the package about, you know, this percentage of the recommended daily value. And this many grams just gets overwhelming. You know, you see all the numbers and like, well, what do I do with all of this? Now, there are some people that need to look at calories.
There are some people that choose to look at that, to look at their, you know, it's certain nutrients that they need for different reasons. That's not that we all need to though. We, we really don't in the grand scheme of things, and this is coming from a pediatrician. Who's not like you need to like monitor every single calorie that you eat.
It's being aware of it, that there are some that are much more calorically dense. And so if you're going to get a food that has several hundred calories in it, okay, you don't need as much of it be aware that it's, it's a more dense food, but coming back to that original child, yeah. There there's a lot that could be looked at now,
the other side of this is I don't want to like convey judgment on this because there may be times that you're like, oh yeah, girl scout cookies, talkies. Yeah. Like, oh yeah, it's great to have those at different times, I'm hearing large amounts. And it sounded like it may have been on a regular kind of basis that this was a snack.
So in-between meals And things similar. Yeah, yeah. It was kind of, yeah. Yeah. So when I see that type of food being eaten, I don't think of it so much as adding nutrition. It's more that it's consumption of calories. And so it's not actually adding to the nutritional benefit for the child. And then that of course Can impact,
you know, your learning, your behaviors. Absolutely. Cause you know, you need the good fuel kind of like you need the, the appropriate octane fuel in your gas tank. Well, we need the appropriate octane food in our body, even though I can't give you the exact number. Like I would love to be able to say with your fuel tank,
but just thinking about that, you know, giving a high quality food will help with high quality performance, High quality food for high quality performance. I love that. Are there any things that are more specific to ADHD where kids should avoid certain things more than the general population or that should make sure they have extra of a certain nutrient, maybe more than the rest of the population Totally.
On a case by case basis. So I know that there is a lot of discussion about adding cer certain nutrients. So a lot of times folks will talk about fish oil supplements for kids who have all sorts of different learning, learning, variations, disabilities, like all sorts of learning concerns on that. They'll look at fish oil and including ADHD. So it's considered within the pediatric literature to be an unproven intervention or an unproven benefit.
Now I got to tell you that does not mean that it's been disproven. It's just something that from a pediatric perspective, I can't recommend that across a population. And then, you know, put all of my patients on this because it been proven in large scale studies, which is what we're looking at. So there may be, you know, a couple of small studies that will show the benefit of fish oil in different learning conditions and ADHD as well.
But you're not going to see a recommendation across the board from the pediatricians, from the different medical societies, because they're looking at the larger scale studies and then trying to look at the really the high quality studies. So you've got the good comparison groups. You're really looking at large numbers so that it's not something that maybe if there was a, a benefit that was seen,
that it's not something that's just happening because of chance. That's why they want to look at it a larger scale level. So it's kind of like a hedging answer. Like maybe, maybe not. I got to tell you, like, as far as I'm concerned, like fish oil, I, I don't have a problem with that. I, we tried it in our own family.
We, we did. So it's something that we didn't personally see any additional benefit for my child. And it's something that he didn't want to continue taking it. You know what, he eats a great variety of foods, including fish. I don't need to add it. So it was one of those things I was like, okay, let me see.
So we talk about an N of one study. So it's like something where you just have this like one person like, well, let me just kind of see if I try here. My, my N is my, my son, my N of one. And so I was like, well, let me see what kind of a benefit I see here.
I didn't, so I didn't continue with it. I think that that's where that individual part really comes into play here. Where from a medical perspective, we can say, you know what? We don't see the reason to recommend this to everyone, but if there's no harm, if it's something you want to, you know, check out and try, that's fine.
There are some expenses involved with it, but I also bring it back to not overlook that good variety in the diet in the first place. Because if we're talking about supplementing something that you're already getting plenty of in your diet, you're just going to pee it out. You don't need to take the extra supplements. Yes, yes. I, and it,
what you're saying is really hitting home for me because that's, it's my message all the time with education and that education needs to be individualized. That what is right for one kid's education is not right for the next kid. And, you know, just going on Facebook and asking somebody, well, what do you, what do you recommend this, you know,
language arts curriculum that works for this other person's kid, but it might not work for your kid or your family or your, you know, all of the pieces. So it's definitely, and that's even what this, this series is about is optimizing a child's education through the, through getting to know your kid, like your individual kid's needs and preferences and all of that.
So I think that's, that's so big. So important out of curiosity, what, Oh, I was just gonna say, I really appreciate that because I think that that's that fine balance. So I wear a couple of hats with being a pediatrician, being a mom, and kind of seeing it from both sides as far as meaning having a lot of these questions that I'm asking within my own home.
And I think it's very easy to just say in the medical office, not recommended, oh no, that's not something we're going to do, but I really believe in listening to the parents about what their questions are, why is it that they're asking in the first place about, you know, supplementing or, you know, different nutritional changes or different diets?
Why, where is that question coming from? Because that can really shed light on what their ultimate, you know, concerns are, or, you know, kind of underneath that initial question, but also recognizing the individuality of the child that's in the office, as opposed to the, the recommendations that are based on that large population base. You know, we,
we make record medical recommendations, you know, like your different guidelines and, you know, like ADHD treatment guidelines. Nutrition-wise, they're like, yeah, there's no particular, you know, dietary changes that are recommended, but you know, what if you say for your child, you know, whenever he eats this, I see something, okay, let's look into that.
Absolutely. That individual part. And that's where the parents are in the perfect spot because they get to see their child day in, day out. You really get to see the pattern of how does my child, you know, tolerate a certain food. How does my child behave? You know, before, after certain foods, it's all about patterns. Yeah.
I, I hundred percent agree, which it again reminded me. What I started to ask was out of curiosity, ifthere's any research on the red food dyes. I hear that one all the time with ADHD, like, oh, cut out red food dye, which in my mind as well, if there's red food dyes, because it's a processed food,
so maybe cut out the processed foods.
I think that that's one of those things I would say, if you have concerns about it, you can feel free to cut out red dye anytime you want. I will totally play my bias right now, right there that, that doesn't come in whole foods. It's one of those things, though. If,
if you see it, yeah, go for it. You can, you know, you can adjust the diet. If you have concerns about it, of course, talk with your, your doctor. If you're making, you know, particular changes, restricting certain categories of foods, that sort of thing. Absolutely talk with your doctor. But if it's just one of those things that,
you know, you're seeing a pattern, well, that's great information. That's fantastic information. And especially for looking for non medicine, ways to treat or to support our children. Absolutely. You got the best tool at home and that's observation of what's going on, you know, with, with your child, with how they tolerate their, their different meals.
Yes. Is the same true for autism. I know with autism, I hear a lot about gluten-free casein-free diets and I've heard people say totally worked was great. And other people say we tried it. It was really hard for us and we gave it up and it didn't, and it didn't work along the way. So they gave it up because it also wasn't worth continuing because it was really hard.
Yep. So here's the thing that there's not, there's not really good evidence that gluten free casein-free diet works across populations. So that's why it's not something that we're going to find as a general recommendation. It is something that some individuals swear by, they say absolutely completely changed for my, My family. I got to tell you, I, I remember with a number of families that I was working with,
and this was, this was really a big question. About 10 years ago. I'm totally dating myself right now when it was such a challenge to be gluten-free because we didn't have the types of products that we have now. It was significantly more expensive than it is right now. And so it was a much bigger discussion, kind of like the, the risks and the benefits for families.
Like, if you want to try this, okay, well maybe it's gonna be a difficult diet or maybe it's going to be a lot more expensive. You know what we're finding out that there's a lot of people now that are gluten-free for all sorts of different reasons, it's much more, you know, widely available, acceptable tolerable. And so if it's something that you want to try,
okay, fine. Again, that's one of those things where I am power the families to be able to check because if not, if you're like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. Could this be helping my child? If it's something that's easily accessible, well, what does that do for the parent? You know, you have this like lingering question in the back of your mind,
and that's where I like to work with families and just say, let's try it. Let's kind of see. But if you're not seeing the changes, because I cannot recommend it, I can't, I can't say you have to do this. Okay. There's not the evidence from a population that it's going to be beneficial. However, if it's beneficial for your child,
go for it. You found something, you answered, you know, one of your questions there. And so again, it comes back to that individual basis. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Going back to kind of what you were talking about with wanting a variety of foods, whole foods that aren't processed, I immediately go to, but the processed foods are so much easier.
So how do we, I guess, how do we balance that for like, just to make it like, is it okay to have a certain amount of processed foods? And is there a way to pick better processed foods? Like, is there such a thing as better processed because some are definitely more expensive than others. Yeah. Yeah. So There,
there's a number of things. So I had a loaded answer. You have a loaded question. So a couple of things we, we often go right to, well, it's so much harder. It's so much harder to work with, you know, whole ingredients, whole foods. I got a question that like, just really like, just stop and just ask yourself,
is it really harder? Why is it that we need to have instantaneous meals? Why do we need this with our current definition of easy, just start asking yourself, what do you really want? Do you want an instantaneous meal that you can just, you know, rip out of the packaging for three minutes and it's on the table, or do you want to invest into,
you know, more time in order to be able to make that meal? No judgment. It's just trying to figure out, well, what do you want to do? What's the, your vision of what you want to do. And I try to not make it sound like all processed foods are bad and I'm not sure how that really came out before.
Not, not succeeded in that one, but I mean, we have processed foods. There are so many processed foods that we have. That's how we have shelf stable foods. You know, even things like the name of the food is what you have. But like rice, rice has been processed. Yeah. Milk has been processed. So I don't want to make it sound like everything processed is bad.
It's just being mindful that I guess the easier it is to get your food, perhaps the less nutrients that are actually in there, because things are being stripped away in order for them to be shelf stable in order for them to be manufactured so that we will want to eat them so very much. I love that. And that's a good point. I know for me personally,
it's the hungry right now, toddlers that make me want instantaneous food, but to be honest, but I usually hand them is a piece of fruit or vegetable while I'm preparing something else. But I also don't have a whole lot of additional time. So then I am always trying to balance that out and do like batch cooking and, you know, making a whole bunch of rice and then using that to make vegetables,
stir fries that are fresh in the moment. That Is actually what I love doing. Like trying to figure out how to make, you know, the easy choice, the healthy choice or the healthy choice, the easy choice. And so it actually started back when my kids were younger and they were always just so hungry right now. And it's like, oh,
I'm trying to cook. I'm trying to cook something here. And by the glory of, of processed foods, here you go. And it was actually those steamer bags of veggies. So I would go and grab those, throw it in the microwave, you know, however long that took like two minutes, two, three minutes, something like that to steam it up and then I'd have it out on the counter so that my hungry kids can eat on,
you know, nibble on something while I'm cooking the rest of the meal, by the way, they're getting their veggies so that, you know, whatever else we're having at school, it's already helping. And it wasn't turning to something else that would then be maybe filling them up instead of being able to then get their, their nutrition from the meal that I was still working to make.
So it actually just contributed to that variety of the foods that they were eating for that particular meal, just one particular example. But you know, even now we hard boil eggs and then we had them available in the fridge. So I mean, I, I hard-boiled eggs. Like every week we slice up veggies, I have like an hour that I take every Sunday and that's my fruit food prep time.
And so slicing up veggies, clean it all up, and then it's that much easier for snacks for being able to just make big salads along the way. I'll totally admit I'm a vegetarian. So for me, this is the easy button. So that I'm a vegetarian that actually eats vegetables as opposed to the vegetarian that, you know, just eats pasta all the time.
But my son can also, you know, go into the fridge and then he has access to all of the, the fruits veggies that have been sliced up there available. He has, you know, all sorts of different options available to him. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for all of this and all of this wisdom and helping us kind of wrap our heads around how to,
how to use nutrition and how much to think about nutrition. I think you gave a lot of really good wisdom, like make the healthy choice, the easy choice, and that a high quality diet can lead to a high quality performance and some really some really good things to think about a lot of variety of whole foods. I kept hearing as like the mainstay of what we need to be focused on,
but allowing that there will also be processed foods in, in our diets and, and that's okay too. Is there anything else? Yes. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I keep on doing that. I apologize. I was just going to say, so one of the things that toddlers taught me okay, is that, you know, like sometimes toddlers will eat the same food over and over again,
and then they'll stop eating it for a little while and then they'll come back again. The variety of foods may not even be within a certain meal or within a certain day. Okay. Our bodies are really flexible as far as their, their ability, excuse me, our bodies are really flexible in their ability to be able to absorb different nutrients store them,
use them. Okay. It's having that variety over a period of time. Okay. Don't get stressed out about all of, you know, I need all of the colors on this plate or what if my child doesn't do it right now? Same thing with children who might be on these food Jags right now, I would suggest not applying labels of picky,
but just keep on introducing, keep on trying, keep on just remembering in the back of your mind that they're going to be eating more and you just get to keep on introducing it to them. I think that is so powerful. And yes, as the toddlers in my life, I watched them and I'm like, oh, you know, really loving protein right now,
any protein I give her, she just wants to eat it up. And then the other one was really loving anything with like a lot of fats in it. And then that's kind of shifted. And now he's more into the proteins and is avoiding things that, you know, he's not eating so much of the pasta and I'm like what happened? Okay.
So it's, it's interesting. We kind of to try to yeah. Not freak out and just, but okay. If I let it go put it on their plate every time and don't say things, I was another thing that I had heard. Like, you know, don't, don't say that, oh, you liked it last time or, oh,
oh, you don't like this. I'm not going to give it to you or you're not going to like this or anything where like you're deciding for them, like it's just goes on the plate every time. And then yeah, that is also true. I love all of that. And I think it's also really helpful because that idea of eat a rainbow every day does feel really daunting to me.
Like it's hard for me to make sure I get something purple every day, but I can have, you know, something per bowl every week and make sure, you know, purple cabbage is the person that comes to mind is like, okay, I can make something with that at least once a week or maybe for a whole week, we had a whole bunch of it.
And for a few weeks we don't, but that signs It, that's helpful to remember about the, the rainbow and the diet more. So when I see kids that are doing the white diet or the yellow diet, so like the Mac and cheese and grilled cheese and bread and yeah. So basically bread. And she just to be able to start, you know,
thinking, okay, let's, let's start looking for the other colors in the rainbow and it's what we make of it. You know, how can we have fun with this, not make it like all about food rules and I must eat this and must get that, but just, you know, how can we play with us? You know, especially with the whole rainbow analogy.
Right. Well, I think rainbows are fun. There's some excitement going on there. Let's explore this and get the kids involved with it too. You know, what can we think of that is purple. Cause you got me scratching my head right now, thinking of purple foods too, but just having some fun with kids and see how they can also contribute to getting a variety of foods.
Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. I love all that. I really feel like we can just keep going and going. Is there anything else that you want to make sure that people know about how diet might impact learning or, or anything around around that? I, I think it really comes back to just, you know, getting regular nutrition, which sounds like the most like a generic kind of statement,
but it's not about some magic missing ingredient. There's not some secret, you know, I don't know, magic bullet that's out there to go say, oh, this is gonna just make everything awesome. And you're going to see a lot of advertisements out there. You know, a lot of things in the media about, you know, this diet changed at all or,
you know, this supplement changed at all. Well, I really try to encourage folks to come back to the basics first. Okay. What is your core kind of like your, your foundational diet? What, what, what do your meals look like to begin with before you start adding in or taking anything else away? And if you are just talk to your doctor,
talk to your doctor, because that way you can really kind of see what types of things to look out for. I bring this up just because sometimes when we changed diets, as far as removing things or adding things into the diet, there are certain things that the doctors need to keep an eye on. What kind of like growth is happening for your child,
as well as if there's certain nutrients that we need to consider. But otherwise it's just that good, very diet to begin with that gives you a solid foundation. And then, you know, what pay attention to your child, speak up about what you see, just note those patterns because you are in the best place to be able to see what works and what doesn't So much wisdom.
And obviously you have so much more wisdom that you can share. How can people find out more about you and all of the amazing things you're doing and what you have available? Oh my, well, I appreciate the opportunity. So while I am a general pediatrician, I am working as a coach for parents who are concerned about overweight in their children. And so yeah,
the nutrition conversations come up a lot, but that's where you can find me on my website. So that's WendySchofermd.com. I do have a coaching program that's called Family In Focus where it's group coaching for parents that are concerned about the weight of their family. And we actually work on entire family habits to build healthier habits for the whole family.
And you can look me up online. You can also listen. I have my own podcast coming up. I look forward to having you joining me. I just need to get it to go live first. So you are a little bit ahead of me on that one. Yay. So more things to watch out for it. Excellent. Well, we will definitely have the link to the website and the course in the show notes or below wherever you are watching or listening to this.
And if your podcast is live, when this goes live, then we'll also link to that. But if not, people can watch for it and maybe get on your email list to hear about it. I have a deadline now. I appreciate that. Awesome. Thank you so much, Wendy. It was amazing talking to you and I look forward to talking to you again soon.